Comments on Paul

I am an open-minded person, and can accept many of the points you present on this website. However, I was researching the apostle Paul for a religion term paper and came across some misrepresentation of Paul. If you were to carefully read all of the book in the New Testament attributed to Paul, you would find that there are glaring contradictions. The only books that anyone is positive Paul even wrote were I Corinthians, Romans, II Corinthians, I Thessalonians, Galatians, Philemon, and Philippians. All the others are often the opposite of Paul's earlier writings. And why, you ask? Well, it was common in those times to credit your own writing to a more influential person, so as to have your opinions read. This is probably the case for Paul, as letters such as I and II Timothy, Titus, Ephesians, Colossians, and II Thessalonians hold opinions different from him. The language and wording used is even different from the norm. That in mind- it is wrong to attribute many of the sexist comments to Paul, because it is unlikely that he wrote them. If you read his earlier books, it is obvious that Paul believed the opposite. He often included women in his churches (which was almost unheard of in his day) and he held women in an equal position. I am still finding my faith... whether I choose to find it in Christianity or elsewhere, it's my decision. But as I read in an earlier post on this guestbook, blind faith is NOT a bad thing. Even as I sit and wonder about my own beliefs, I realize faith is a beautiful thing. What is wrong with compassion and love? What is wrong with helping your fellow man? If for some people it takes blind faith to reach this point, so be it. But please do not mark someone wrong because of their beliefs...especially when you don't know for certain if your way is the right way. Because no one knows for sure. Let them have their faith, and you can have what you choose to have. Just please do not judge, and do not leave writings on here that are incorrect. All it would take is a little research... you should look into that.

Just wanted to say I enjoy this kind of helpful input and agree with you on most of it. The article you refer to was not written by me but was put out on http://www.about.com/ . If I'm guessing right you are referring to the article at Paul: the Father of Sexism and Anti-Semitism?

I present a lot of different viewpoints on my website and often get praise and attacks from believers and non-believers alike. I've been accused of heresy, being an agent for Islam, an atheist, etc. Heresy I will buy because most Christians are heretics to other Christians. While I revile men such as John Calvin, Martin Luther, and St Augustine, I like Arius, Pelagius, and Jacobus Arminius to name a few. While I see Jesus as a great moral teacher, I don't see Him as divine. I've said more than once many times the opinions represented in places on this site don't represent most Christians or even myself. I do deal with fundamentalists and I'm negative with them but for the same reason I'm negative with Deists that only attack other faiths. As for Paul I see him as the basic founder of Christianity today.

< i am still finding my faith... whether i choose to find it in christianity or elsewhere, it's my decision. But as I read in an earlier post on this guestbook, blind faith is NOT a bad thing.>

Blind faith isn't always bad i agree but blind faith in evil leads to evil. i think the best way is some of both reason and faith. i've argued for some time that reason alone has no moral code and we have to respect/learn from traditions and learn from the mistakes of others. By all means don't dump all faith, just be careful. in the end what is best for you must be your choice. you are not operating on "blind faith" because you have read/studied the bible and noticed something wrong just as i have.

< if you read his earlier books, it is obvious that paul believed the opposite. he often included women in his churches (which was almost unheard of in his day) and he held women in an equal position >

I agree totally. In fact it seems I'm reading two or more writers and all we have to go by is scholars who can't agree on anything. I think both Paul and perhaps Jesus as well held women in equal positions as pointed out by the Gnostics. Paul was too educated to make the glaring mistakes presented in his name. It seems women were also instrumental in spreading the faith in a Greco-Roman and Jewish world that offered at best second class status to women. Christianity in its initial stages was a source of hope for those with no hope at all but later when it got into the hands of the rich and powerful to them it became a threat. Jewish ethics in general were a threat to a brutal slave-based society. Imagine if slaves had to be freed after seven years?

There is plenty of proof of tampering with the writings and most copies only go back to Nicaea. (325 CE) In the official New American Bible of the Catholic Church it admits for example that the Book of John was "shorter," had multiple authorship, etc. This calls the whole faith into question and they know it. Let me restate that it doesn't disprove the whole faith, just the official versions.

Very good observation and how much of the Bible in general was this? What is worse is for the Church to admit they don't really know who wrote the majority of the Bible. How much editing was added in, copying errors, and plain politics. The fact was Nicaea never really settled anything and it was the sword that settled it until the Protestant Reformation and later.

< because no one knows for sure. let them have their faith, and you can have what you choose to have. just please do not judge, and do not leave writings on here that are incorrect. all it would take is a little research... you should look into that. >

I shall certainly do that. I'll turn this into a webpage and link it into the two articles I have on Paul to present the valid points you bring up. But remember the "experts" can't agree on anything so all I can do is present what I can find and just voice my opinion.

Best regards,
Lewis Loflin

Of interest to this issue is my page Early Christian Writings that lists some of the many books/writings of Christianity.

An excellent book on this subject by Hyam MacCoby is entitled The Mythmaker, Paul and the Invention of Christianity. (ISBN 0-06-015582--5) Also if one is interested in the Ebionites, the true followers of Jesus and His Message, you can visit their website at http://www.ebionite.org/ or view a copy of their FAQ page on this site. Please note these people are NOT CHRISTIANS and won't deal with Bible-thumping fundamentalists. They follow the original teaching of Jesus who founded a Jewish sect, not the Hellenized Paul or the pagan Trinity. Before you waste anyone's time, view their FAQ here first.

Final Word on Paul

As far as the Apostle Paul goes here is my opinion on the subject.

  1. It's beyond dispute Paul never met Jesus in the flesh and reveals little of Jesus' life. Other than his own personal "visions" with God, Jesus, both, etc. it all boils down to, "Do I believe or have "faith" that Paul recieved revelations?" Their is no way to prove it one way or the other. That is a matter of "faith."
  2. As pointed out by his friend and companion Luke he was employed by the Temple Preist to hunt down Jesus' followers. What Christians never bring up is the Temple authorities were appointed by and served the Romans, not the general Jewish population who dispised them. Paul was never a Pharasee because he worked for the Saddessess that ran the Temple, their enemy. Also as pointed in Luke and elsewhere, Jesus' sect wasn't rejected by the the Pharasees and his teachings reflected theirs.
  3. Paul was an educated man. He was a child of the Diaspora or those Jews that lived outside the Holy Land. Tarsus (his home) was pagan and Greek culture abounded there. Paul was literate in Greek as all writngs attributed to him are in Greek. As literate he couldn't help but know Greek culture and pholosophy. This is very important because many of his ideas such as risen savior-god, treatment of women, etc. may have been Greek Gnostic in origin. Gnosticism in its many forms was widespead in Greek culture and somewhat in Judaism perhaps via the Essenes. (Dead Sea Scrolls fame.) Paul was a cultural Greek just as American Jews are cultural Americans. There is nothing negative about this either way but one's culture plays a big part in their outlook at the world.
  4. Paul was a Roman citizen as pointed out in Luke. There were only two ways to be a Roman citizen and that was to be born one or buy it. Only the very wealthy could do that and if Paul was just a "tentmaker" that is unlikely. As one friend pointed out he may have gotten money from later followers and done just that, bought it. I don't buy that and nowhere is this said in the Bible. The most likely senerio as brought out by MacCoby (and Paul's detractors the Ebionites) is his parents/family were converts or "God-fearers" which under Judaism are Gentiles that observe the Noahide Covenent but don't have to convert to Judaism. That brings up another point, Judaism doesn't damn Gentiles nor requires a conversion to Judaism. They certainly take converts but don't require full conversion, etc. Paul seemed torn between the Greek World and Jewish World both which were going through massive changes in the First Century.
  5. As pointed out in Luke, Paul had a severe conflict with Jesus' brother James and in other places Peter, etc. Jesus' followers were Torah observent Jews while Paul's ideas of Jesus as a pagan-style savior-god is idoletry to Jews. In the Diaspora or Greek speaking world Paul would have found a more receptive audience because most Jews there were receptive to other ideas. Christianity is a fusion of both. Note that when I say "pagan" I don't intend anything negative, just non-Jewish.
  6. Ally pointed out many later writings weren't likely Paul and reflects an increasingly anti-Semetic and anti-women agenda of the Church Fathers. Paul considered himself a Jew and I don't think he ever hated his fellow Jews and as several other Christian sects (declared heretics and murdered) along with some of Paul's early writings point out, women were equals. The later writings were selected I think to reflect the Church leadership of the 3rd-4th centuries, not the actual ideas of Paul or Jesus. Paul was just too educated to make the glaring contridictions and mistakes in the Bible.
  7. Finally we must not forget the contributions of Marcion who would elevate the teachings of Paul above Jesus in the gospels.

Let's not judge the whole Christian faith, Jesus, or even Paul by the evil committed in the guise of religion by others. I still hold to the opinion that the Trinity, Nicene Creed, and Original Sin of St Augustine are unbiblical and are not supported by the Bible.

Do we need an intermediary between mankind and God?

The answer is no and if Paul was a rabbi as he claimed he would know this. Paul would have known that Gentiles don't even need to convert to Judaism for "salvation" as the official Christian business lobby claims. There are thousands who have come to proudly identify as a Noachide, or B'nai Noah (children of Noah) while Jews alone are covered by the Sinai Covenant.

The seven Noachide commandments are:

The prohibition of idolatry
The prohibition of blasphemy
The prohibition of murder
The prohibition of theft
The prohibition of immoral sexual relations
The prohibition of eating the limb of a living animal
The commandment to establish courts of law enforcing the above commandments

This is why Jews don't proselytize because there is no need to. Gentiles are not damned for not being Jews, we are already covered as long as we follow God's Seven Laws. But if one believes that God was born between the legs of a human woman, you are guilty of idolatry under both covenants. This also breaks the power of churches because one has a direct relationship to God. Phony faith in some intermediary deity such as Jesus isn't even needed. Christianity started out as a Jewish heresy but Paul turned it into a savior-god cult. This is what caused so much conflict between Paul (who never even met Jesus in the flesh) verses James.

Christian origins, conflicts, and key players.

 

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