Deism: God, reason, freedom

Challenge to Atheists

Atheism is a logical way to live one's life. It compels a person to take responsibility for his own actions and not to blame it on God, the devil or other spiritual forces. Since an atheist believes that this physical life is all there is he will try to make the best of it and not suffer insufferable conditions in the hope of some imagined afterlife. If all peoples were atheists there would be none of the conflicts we see today that are fueled by different belief systems. Atheists are as upstanding in general as any Christian, Jew or Buddhist. You don't have to believe in God to be a moral person.

Having said all those nice things it is now time to take a shot at the smug atheist worldview. The atheist thinks he has it all figured out. Atheists can point to the contradictions in the Bible, the track record of the Christian church, the conflicts produced by competing religions in the world, and of course science is on their side when it comes to evolution - the fossil record will prove evolution except to the most enthusiastic creationist. Science also suports the view of a very old universe - no surprise there.

Now here is the challenge: Does becoming an atheist make a person a better human being? Does not believing in God prompt or inspire a person to positive actions. Christianity (and other religions) can point to many, many people whose lives were changed for the better by adopting the faith. Can atheism make the same claim? Can atheists point to examples of people who have had their lives positively changed? Have any drug addicts given up their addictions as a result of discarding religion? Have any thieves stopped stealing and started earning an honest living as a result of becoming infidels? Have any abusive husbands stopped beating their wives as a result of abandoning a belief in God? In short, if atheism is such a positive way to live what real good has it done? Can it even be called a "belief-system"? (After all it is really about a lack of belief - isn't it?) If you would like to comment on the positive effects of atheism (if they indeed do exist) then E-mail me your views and I will post them below.

Proving that the Bible is flawed only proves that either the Christian God does not exist or that he has a high tolerance for incompetance and error in his sacred book. Pointing to the performance of the Christian church and other religions over the ages only proves that those organized religions were flawed and perhaps do not actually represent the Creator. Pointing to the evil in this world, the pointless deaths, the triumph of evil men, the violence in nature - this does not prove that God does not exist - only that he is absent from the scene or that he does not wish to intervene. Evolution does not necessarily pre-empt God - he could easily have used that method to produce the life diversity that we see on this earth. It could easily be argued that life is designed to evolve on its own most of the time and yet be subject to intervention as God desires. Debunking or criticizing religion is mostly a negative activity. It is a positive effort only when it frees people from a strangle-hold placed on them by too-authoritarian beliefs. After the chains have been broken - then what? A void has been created. Is the person really any better off than before?

Atheism is an incomplete worldview. It does work in many day to day applications because it often does look like there is no God. The question is does God actually not exist or has God just gone off somewhere? Is God there but not intervening? Please feel free to offer your coments.

Please note that the above page was taken from another website with some modifications. My belief is that it's both the society one is a part of and one's personal disposition that determines personal "morality" however defined. Stalinist Russia is good case in point. Atheism was treated as religious dogma in the same way Christianity had been. Stalin was evil regardless of whatever religion he followed (or didn't follow) growing up in a brutal anti-democratic and anti-Semitic Christian society. That shaped his outlook, not atheism in itself. Also note that any belief system is destructive in the wrong hands.

Printed below are responses to this challenge, I present them as is with no comment. I only use first names, last initial and don't ask for e-mails, I don't release them. I present this page only to induce thought, not as an attack. I will not post obscenities.

Lewis Loflin

Hi, I like your web site! I have some comments about A Challenge to Atheists.

I am an atheist. However, I don't think I "have it all figured out," nor do I think I have the "correct answer." I simply don't have any god(s) in my belief system.

"Atheism" means "without" god. I'm not anti-god, and I don't assert that anyone can prove that God doesn't exist. God just isn't part of my belief system. I don't disbelieve in god(s), but I have a belief system that is "without god."

Please don't assume that all atheists think alike. There are at least as many kinds of non-theism as there are types of theism. More, probably, since atheism has no "pope" who dictates what we should believe! ;^) Lacking an authority figure to speak for us, though, we are generally defined by our "opposition" who paints us as angry and anti-theistic. That's a silly and inaccurate generalization.

G. J.

Hello,

I am writing in response to the article titled "Challenge to Atheists". I agree that atheism is an incomplete world view, and that its claim that God does not exist is erroneous.

However, I have problems with bringing up the question of whether or not people's lives have been positively changed as a result of non-belief. I can't think of any circumstances (except of course the existentialists who gave mankind the kick in the ass they needed). Sure, drug addicts and abusive husbands have claimed to have changed as a result of their particular belief systems, but are they really just replacing one obsession with the other, leaving themselves out of the picture, hiding behind God, demons, or deities?

Just food for thought...

Respectfully,
Kate

((Sure, drug addicts and abusive husbands have claimed to have changed as a result of their particular belief systems, but are they really just replacing one obsession with the other, leaving themselves out of the picture, hiding behind God, demons, or deities? Just food for thought... Respectfully, Kate ))

Reading this post made me stop and think about my experiences with Christianity. I was HEAVILY involved with the non-denominational Protestant groups in my high school and on my college campus. At first they (the leaders and other members) made Christianity seem as living a life free of sin and paying homage to God with my life - what some would call just being a just and loving person. Looking out for your fellow man, etc. But the deeper I got into the Bible studies and weekly meetings, the leaders started to encourage incorporating Jesus into EVERY aspect of my life - asking Jesus how I should handle every single situation and interaction in my day to day life. I soon found myself in the car talking to Jesus, talking to nonChristian friends meanwhile thinking about how Jesus would want me to try and convert them. Like Kate said in her response, maybe those ex-druggies are exchanging one addiction for another. I've seen with friends! of mine and myself, that it doesn't take much for obedience to God to turn to 24-hour addiction. Looking back at it, it was extremely unhealthy. I was an extremist. I saw the world through black and white colors. The people in the groups I belonged to were encouraged to "give up our own identities and put on the identity of Christ." Although none of them will admit it, it can be said that the group was breeding clones. Everything you do and everything that happens in life, and I mean EVERYTHING, is a matter of God and the devil wanting it to happen, and demons influencing your actions. The average person's mind was consumed with thoughts of the supernatural on any given day. I'm sure what I've just written does not apply to every Protestant Christian group, but if they are anything like mine was (and I've visited many similar groups and churches - they are like this) then Kate has it right on the money - it's just an exchange ! of obsession.

Valentina

The Response...
Now here is the challenge: Does becoming an atheist make a person a better human being?
No..Just a more serious one...
Does not believing in God prompt or inspire a person to positive actions.
No. Usually it results in extreme compensatory righteousness...Right?
Christianity (and other religions) can point to many, many people whose lives were changed for the better by adopting the faith. Can atheism make the same claim?
Dont know really..History blanks out the atheist...But I do think history amply describes people who found religion and made life worse for their fellow human beings...
Can atheists point to examples of people who have had their lives positively changed? Me for example?
Have any drug addicts given up their addictions as a result of discarding religion?
I know plenty of Catholics who love "wine"!
Have any thieves stopped stealing and started earning an honest living as a result of becoming infidels?
The prisons are full of Christians. Any atheists aboard? Probably not in the same ratio...Right?
Have any abusive husbands stopped beating their wives as a result of abandoning a belief in God?
Dont know, but I bet alot of them got to church...
In short, if atheism is such a positive way to live what real good has it done?
What good has religion done except divide and curse humanity?
Can it even be called a "belief-system"? (After all it is really about a lack of belief - isn't it?) It isnt a belief system!!!!!
If you would like to comment on the positive effects of atheism (if they indeed do exist) then E-mail me your views and I will post them below.
Oh gee...thanks for your opportunity to defend myself...Im "blessed"!!!...Heres the rub dude..Dont really care what supernatural hocus pocus you believe in...You can inject whatever moral values you want into the dogma that defines your existense but it all comes down to 3 things that defines religion in this ol' USA today 1) what can it do for me (money, power, heaven?), other people's sex lives, and how can we shove our relion down other people's throats...No?...Dont know any atheists who even come close to this kind of obnoxious, insane behaviour as I read about and experience everday in this land of "freedom"...
So it begs the question: Does becoming an theist make a person a better human being?

Matt S.

Does becoming an atheist make a person a better human being?

I believe so. Atheists must undergo a tremendous amount of thoughtful introspection. Atheism frees the individual of mysticism, superstition, xenophobia, irrational Dogma, and religious prejudice. It also allows the atheist to work more towards improving the quality of life in this world, than to worry more about what might happen in the invisible "next" world. Does not believing in god prompt or inspire a person to positive actions. christianity (and other religions) can point to many, many people whose lives were changed for the better by adopting the faith. can atheism make the same claim?………….. in short, if atheism is such a positive way to live what real good has it done? in short, if atheism is such a positive way to live what real good has it done? If you are arguing that religion has improved lives by giving them peace of mind and some sense of philosophy, it may be true in cases, but the claim is vague and unmeasurable in any meaningful and objective sense. In truth, I know of no proof that religion inspires more positive action than secularism. And in fact, we do know that religion has inspired the Inquisition, Crusades, Holocaust and countless wars around the world. I think you'd have a difficult case to objectively demonstrate that the positive impact of religion is greater than the negative impact.

In comparison, let's look at what can be done in the absence of religion. While most people consider themselves religious, it is interesting to note that most charity work in the U.S. is done by secular, not religious, organizations. Think about the advances science has made in feeding people, in curing disease, in lengthening the human lifespan, in advancing technology, in understanding our world and our universe—deeds (independent of religion) that unquestionably and objectively improve the quality of life for billions of people around the world. Certainly, most of these advances have been done during the past couple hundred years, during the age of science, reason and hard work, not during the preceding 1,500 years when religion was the dominant force in our lives and science was suppressed. By most every objective and measurable criterion, then, there has been many good works done in the world completely independent of any religion. Now, let's turn the question around. When you look at the most religious time in Christian history, does that seem to you to have been the best time in which to live? When you look around the world today, do the most religious societies of the world seem like the best places in which to live today? I know how I'd answer these questions. I think we're better off in the least of religious societies. Can atheists point to examples of people who have had their lives positively changed? Virtually every atheist I know can tell you that his life improved when religion, irrational fear, and superstition was discarded. I know mine did.

Have any drug addicts given up their addictions as a result of discarding religion? While I, as an atheist, have never smoked, used drugs, or drunk alcohol, (like many atheists I know, and unlike most who would characterize themselves as religious), I can tell you as a medical person that drug addiction is more of a medical problem than a morality issue. Have any thieves stopped stealing and started earning an honest living as a result of becoming infidels? One would think from this biased question that one needs religion to be moral, ethical, and free from crime—despite the fact that many codes of morality in the world are secular in origin. But let's look at your assumption.

The 2001 ARIS (American Religious Identification Survey) found that 13% of the US population was non-religious. One holding your assumption might expect that 13% or more of the population of US prisons would also be non-religious. Yet the opposite is true. For example, in "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith state that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10th of 1%. Another example is the work by W.T. Root, Professor of Psychology at the University of Pittsburgh, who found that in a survey of 1,916 prisoners, Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers were absent from penitentiaries, or nearly so. A third example, during a 10 year examination of inmates at Sing-Sing, it was found that of those executed for murder, 65% were Catholic, 26% were Protestants, 6% were Jewish, 2% were Pagan and less than 1/3 of 1% were non-religious. Being non-religious would appear to have an inverse relationship with being a criminal.

Have any abusive husbands stopped beating their wives as a result of abandoning a belief in God? I think the better question is why religious men would be beating their wives in the first place.

Can it even be called a "belief-system"? (After all it is really about a lack of belief - isn't it?) Atheism simply means discarding beliefs in superstition. It doesn't mean anarchy or no belief in any system of morality. In fact, most codes of conduct, codes of ethics, and codes of morality in the world today are not religious-based.

Proving that the Bible is flawed only proves that either the Christian God does not exist or that he has a high tolerance for incompetence and error in his sacred book. True.

Pointing to the performance of the Christian church and other religions over the ages only proves that those organized religions were flawed and perhaps do not actually represent the Creator. True. And that being devout doesn't insure that the individual has a sense of morality. Pointing to the evil in this world, the pointless deaths, the triumph of evil men, the violence in nature - this does not prove that god does not exist - only that he is absent from the scene or that he does not wish to intervene. True—though in this case, God's existence or non-existence has no meaning in our lives whatsoever.

Evolution does not necessarily pre-empt God - he could easily have used that method to produce the life diversity that we see on this earth. The whole idea of evolution is that it is a mechanism that doesn't require supernatural forces. If you're stating that a supernatural force have created a mechanism that doesn't require the supernatural force, it's possible, but an unsupportable contention.

It could easily be argued that life is designed to evolve on its own most of the time and yet be subject to intervention as God desires. If you're going to argue for supernatural intervention, then you have to support it with evidence.

Debunking or criticizing religion is mostly a negative activity. Being free of superstition and irrational fear is hardly negative.

It is a positive effort only when it frees people from a strangle-hold placed on them by too-authoritarian beliefs. Unfortunately, religion also adversely affects the atheist, in the form of misunderstanding, prejudice and hatred.

After the chains have been broken - then what? A void has been created. Is the person really any better off than before? Absolutely. Who wants to live in fear of a vengeful God? Who wants to believe they're unworthy of salvation? Who wants to waste time praying for magic when he can work towards a solution?

Atheism is an incomplete worldview? Only if you have a place in your life for irrational superstition and mysticism.

It does work in many day to day applications because it often does look like there is no God. The question is does God actually not exist or has God just gone off somewhere? Is God there but not intervening? If the concept of God involves one who is either unaware of what's going on (contradicting any supposed omniscience), aware but disinterested in humanity, (contradicting any supposed qualities about "goodness", or one with limited powers who cannot intervene, (contradicting any supposed qualities of omnipotence), then the concept of God, and the belief in Him, becomes more and more meaningless.

Thank you for allowing me to respond.
Dr. S. A. Schumacher
Canada - Wednesday, June 12, 2002 at 17:13:39 (PDT)

I won't rehash some of the excellent observations made in previous responses to your challenge. But I would like to question the relevancy of the challenge. From my perspective as a atheist, it means nothing whether or not being an atheist makes me a better person. Being an atheist means making an uncompromised commitment to the truth. The truth, as I see it, is that there is no proof of God's existence. The effects of belief in a make-believe character such as God can be explained in many ways other than some proof that this character actually exists. Atheists will believe in God only when there is sufficient proof that he exists.

Even if it were true that believing in God made one better, atheists would not embrace that belief. Suppose I were to demonstrate to you that children that believed in Santa Clause were less "naughty" than those who were agnostic toward Santa. Would you then command that everyone believe in Santa, or proclaim that Santa must really exist? I have heard and read of numerous cases of convicts while in prison converting to Islam, where after they, supposedly, became much more moral and fulfilled persons. Would these instances indicate that Allah is somehow better than their previous Christian god? Some scientists believe that belief in God has conferred an evolutionary advantage, so it became hardwired into most people's brains. The actual existence of a god and the behavior of those who believe in him are not linked in any way.

In my experience atheists are generally moral, upstanding people. I find nothing lacking in their world view. Those persons who have sudden religious conversions and embrace a disciplined and moral religious lifestyle aren't switching from atheism to belief, but rather always believed even if they weren't committed to their beliefs. In fact, it seems to be extremely rare for people to switch between atheism and belief. It is so rare that I would hesitate to characterize what effect it might have upon their lives. But in any event, if some suddenly religious persons do experience better lives, it proves nothing relative to the existence of God. Likewise, the fact that atheists are generally righteous people in and of itself does not disprove God. Atheists don't become atheists because they think that makes them any better or smarter or happier than others. They are atheists because they refuse to compromise their standards of intellectual honesty and truth. In other words, they call 'em as they see 'em.

Regards,

Pat

Atheism has changed my life for the better. I no longer need to tell people they're doomed to hell. I can appreciate other mythologies. I understand people better now that I don't see them as sinners. People who work with me have remarked again and again how calm I am now in the face of frustrations. I feel that the burden to to please an unpleaseable god has been lifted. This has helped me to keep my wife close to her wayward daughter. I would believe in Something if I ever saw any credible evidence. But fear of god is not a good reason for morality. Enlightened self interest is.

Rick

Challenge to Atheists II

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